The secrets of great copywriting – Interview with Trevor “ToeCracker” Crook

Trevor "Toe Cracker" Crook
The secrets of great copywriting – Interview with Trevor “ToeCracker” Crook

Trevor Crook (AKA Trevor “ToeCracker” Crook) is one of Australia’s top copywriters. He works with businesses all over the globe, writing them sales copy that pulls in millions of dollars.

In this interview Trevor tells me how he does it.

You either watch the video below or read the transcript underneath, enjoy!

Joey Bushnell: Hi everyone, this is Joey Bushnell. Today I have with me a fantastic copywriter. His name is Trevor Crook and you may know him as Trevor “ToeCracker” Crook, that is how he is known in the copywriting industry. Trevor thank you so much for being with me today.

Trevor Crook: G’day Joey, thanks for having me it’s a pleasure to be on your call.

Joey Bushnell: Thank you! Trevor how did you get in to copywriting?

Trevor Crook: Interesting question. I was banking for a total of 20 years. 15 years in paid employment as a banker and then 5 years as an independent broker. It was back in 2001, where I was struggling as to what I wanted to do. I had my own business which was the brokering side of it and also doing business mentoring and consulting. My passion had really been marketing. I purchased the rights to Dan Kennedy’s material, to sell the products and it was from there that I started to study the aspect of copywriting because I had a couple of Dan’s copywriting courses as part of the packages that I was able to sell.

That really got me in to it. My first paid copywriting gig was almost by accident. I was doing a trade show in Australia for businesses and franchises. One of the stall owners had a meeting with me and wanted to know if I could write some sales copy for him. Which I’d never done in a paid way before and so that’s how my first foray at copywriting started. I charged the guy $10,000 and that was back in 2001 which is pretty ballsey for your first paid copywriting gig. But I put my “you know what’s” on the line, backed my ability that I’d be able to put it together and thankfully it did so, to the tune of about $558,000 in two nights for him. So that’s how I got started and I haven’t looked back ever since.

Joey Bushnell: Awesome, so you justified the fee for sure with that massive return. How did the “ToeCracker” nickname come about Trevor?

Trevor Crook: That came about roughly a year prior, when I was consulting with one of my business clients. Having meetings and discussions with them and putting my banking background in to play, it was pretty evident that their cash flow was struggling predominately due to their sister operations pillaging the profits out of the business that I was talking to. So I told them some home truths, I didn’t hold back, I’m not known for sugar coating anything I tell it straight. So I basically told them off. This was a huge corporation in Australia, I won’t mention the name.

From me telling them off and then implementing some of the strategies that I discussed with them (and one clearly wasn’t one that I was the originator from but I knew about) they were able to turn a $900,000 overdraft, hardcore debt facility into a constant daily cash flow of around three quarters of a million dollars within 12 months. They sent me a letter thanking me, like a testimonial, where they said “thanks to your toecracker ways” etc so I simply used that as a gimmick. I liked it because I did kick them in the ass verbally and they got the results from it. So that’s where the name came into play.

Joey Bushnell: OK, lets talk copywriting Trevor. Copywriting generally starts with a headline, any good sales letter starts that way. For you, what are the ingredients of a really powerful headline?

Trevor Crook: The ingredients come down to many factors. I generally won’t even look at working on a headline for myself or for my clients until I know exactly what the offer is and know who he is selling to, in other words profiling. Unless you know who you are selling to and you’ve profiled your ideal prospects correctly and you know exactly what you’re offering, it is really hard to come up with the right formula and gritties to crank out the best headline.

One of the things that I stick to these days and have done since discovering this back in 2007, from my mentor Mr Ted Nicholas, is to keep your headline to a maximum of 17 words. You can have your sub head and sub headings 2,3 or 4 if need be. But I’m sure you’ve seen the long epic headline which is almost like a novel in itself (and I’ve done those in the past myself). Ted’s got 8 odd billion dollars track record as a writer and when testing headlines less than 17 words or more, the results are always the same. That’s one of the key ingredients for any writer.

Make that headline short, punchy and stand out. Make it the neon light in some broadway top scenario in New York, where it really stands out and hooks your prospect in to keep reading because the only job of your headline is to get the next sentence read. Period. Nothing else. If you don’t do that you’re going to leave money on the table.

Joey Bushnell: Do you have any examples of the best headline you have ever written? Do you have a favorite that you have written over the years?

Trevor Crook: There are so many that I could think of but rather than give you one of mine, I’ll give one that I talk about because I’ve modeled from these and the results that people get based on the modeling from those is very invaluable.

As an example, I learned from Dan Kennedy about the power of adding an S. For one of his clients he had a headline and they were offering guitar lessons so they were running lead generation adverts which is clearly just a headline with a response mechanism.

Headline A which they tested was “Put music in your life, call…” and they had a number to call. A couple of weeks later they added one single letter being an S, which was now “Puts music in your life, call…” same call to action. That one letter S turned the previous headline from I’ve got to get off my ass to learn how to play guitar to a benefit implying it’s done for you and the response increase there was 300%. Now that’s quite staggering for one single letter.

Recently in December, and I can’t recall what the exact wording was from this, but my then girlfriends mother works for a big hearing loss center in Canada. The guy who owns the business has got centers all over Canada. She showed me the headline from the copywriter they had been using she didn’t like it and I didn’t like it. It wasn’t a benefit driven type headline. Literally the next day I’m shaving thinking about this headline and how I could improve it. I quickly came up with something different which I knew wasn’t the best. But just testing my headline out pulled their control by 15-1 or 1500%. That’s the power of copy.

So rather than just one example because there are so many of them, I’m just finishing my latest monthly report, I finished it today. Only a week and a half ago one of my friends was having coffee with me and showed me an example of a CPA offer he was putting out. To the credit of the copywriter, even though the copy had more holes in it than the Titanic, it was still generating sales. I told him to part with some Benjamin’s and let me tweak it for him at mates rates. I said until I get time to get to the copy, let me just bang you out a couple of quick headlines based on what I can see already that I thought would out pull. I gave them to him the next day and he was consistently getting daily sales of “X” but within 24 hours his sales are up 59.09%.

I only took his existing headline, his sub headings and added a couple more words to it to make it sizzle. I knew it wasn’t the best headline I could come up with until I did a bit of research and rewrote his sales letter. However within 24 hours his sales were up by 59%. That is the power of a couple of word changes that anyone should be making to their current headline to see what sort of results they can get and increase sales, which is the bottom line answer that we all want.

Joey Bushnell: You mentioned earlier that the purpose of the headline is to get people to keep reading, it’s not that the headline itself necessarily sells. So the fact that conversions went up so dramatically, is that because before they were clicking on the page and then they were immediately clicking away without even reading the copy? But when you’ve got a strong headline they then go on to read and then once they’ve read the copy you’ve got a chance to then at least get an order from them, is that right?

Trevor Crook: That’s exactly right. If your headline is targeting the wrong crowd or it’s weak/lame, and you know online people think you’ve got 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, 5 seconds, 10 seconds before people will click off of your page. A study done back in 2006 shows that was just pure BS, you’ve got 50 milliseconds. One 20th of a second before people decide to stay or leave. When they leave they go somewhere else and give their money to them.

So in this case the headline hit enough emotional triggers of the target market that he was after to keep reading and then do the procedures that he asked for. Now I can only imagine when the copy gets better and hits more emotional triggers what sort of results he’s going to get. It’s those minor changes, the tweaks, the one word, the two word, the five words, the ten words in your copy that can make all of the difference.

A lot of the copy that I do, you don’t even know that I’ve done it. I sign certain disclosure agreements. Like last year I was hired by a weight loss company that did 125 million dollars in sales the year before to beat their controls. When someone has such a track record and they are spending millions of dollars a month in advertising and buying traffic etc. the pressure is on. Plus an infomercial which was already doing exceptionally well. They want to see whether a few tweaks here and a few tweaks there could bump it up or could it go the other way.

What I find is people get stuck. They put off their sales letter or they do their offline marketing piece and they say “Well that’s working to a degree” so they don’t even bother to test it. You should always be playing that game called “beat to control” because when you beat your control you’re making more money.

Joey Bushnell: You mentioned earlier about subheads. Why do we use sub headlines and do you have any tips on how to use them effectively?

Trevor Crook: Yes in terms of headlines firstly, what I teach people and what I recommend to people is that you should be cranking out about 150 headlines before you’ve even decided on the first couple to test. Now I know 99.9% of people are too darn lazy to even do 20. That’s their choice. All I can tell you with absolute certainty is, for example David Ogilvy who is an absolute legend in terms of direct response advertising, people know he is famous for his Rolls Royce headline. What they don’t know is that was his 104th headline. It took 103 fails before the 104th hit it out of the park. So when you’ve profiled your ideal customers correctly and you know what your offer is and you’ve spent the time investing in your headlines, you can use those.

Use some of the other key benefits in your subheads. It’s like catching a fish. You thread the line until you get that first little nibble and as you start to pull you get the fish further on your bait. That is what the subheadings are designed to do. In other words you’ve hooked your ideal prospects into at least read your headline and continue to read. Those sub heads are designed to hit more emotional triggers to get them to keep reading, keep reading and keep reading.

Now you can get them down as far as a salutation. Have the salutation worded incorrectly and lose sales. So all facets with copy and not just your headlines, are all very important. And I’m going to give you an example I speak about this in various places around the world where I speak but it’s very powerful.

Many years ago some friends of mine were selling an eBook on how to have a wedding on a shoe string budget. Great headline, great subheads and really good copy. Got to the salutation and the salutation said “Dear Bride..”. Now you would think, and it’s a good assumption, that it’s women and brides that would budget so brides are the ideal target market. When they changed the Salutation “Dear Bride” to “Dear friend” the sales and such conversions doubled. It still blows me away today when I speak about it but it’s so simple.

As it turned out it was the men looking online. The headline did it’s job, subhead did it’s job, subhead did it’s job, the 3rd sub head did it’s job then they read “Dear Bride” and think “I’m not a bride” this isn’t for me, click off and don’t read any further. That’s powerful. People listen to that aspect and go “Wow!”. So the safest salutation you can have is “Dear friend”. Tested for decades again by my mentor Ted Nicholas, so why would I want to reinvent the wheel. It’s just been proven with that case “Dear bride” to “Dear friend” the sales doubled.

Joey Bushnell: Sure, so “Dear friend” works because it’s quite general and it’s a warm friendly way to start the letter. If you get too specific you could actually miss who you are talking to.

Trevor Crook: Yes, now if you know and really understand who you are selling to and don’t assume who you are selling to, then you can add to it. So let’s say you are selling to tax payers that are frustrated you could say “Dear friend and frustrated tax payer” or “beleaguered tax payer”. But if you say “Dear friend and parents” and 90% of your customers are women, you could lose sales there. You might think that’s not possible but in reality is it’s very possible.

Joey Bushnell: How do we find the unique angle for our copy, one that the market perhaps hasn’t seen before? Often you see sales letters all coming from the same point of view and your just tired of seeing the same old sales letter. How do you come up with a different angle and a different approach to speaking to the market that’s heard the same thing 100 times before?

Trevor Crook: Yes, very good question and I’ll try and answer it the best I can. These days, and I’m sure it’s got a little bit more saturated since the explosion of the internet there’s the typical hype and over the top sales letter which I think you may be referring to, it says the same thing. To a certain degree the over the top hype sales letter will work if its being offered around the affiliate market or the syndicate market where the buyers just buy anyway.

The really good and great sales letters of course have a good headline that hooks them in. But they do what I call subliminal copy. It’s very personal, it’s story telling, it’s short words, it’s short sentences and it’s believable. Defining the angle of why your particular product or service is different come down to profiling your ideal customer. If you haven’t profiled your ideal customer correctly or if you don’t understand why they are buying from you in the first place or why they have bought form you in the past, you’re not going to get the angle.

So many times when I’m asked to critique sales letters I know the person who has written it doesn’t know who the hell it’s selling to and hasn’t asked the right questions. My profiling questionnaire is about 15 pages long. So before I even start to write copy to somebody that has got to be answered because otherwise I won’t even start because I don’t want to write one of those sales letters that everybody has seen.

So your question is not that easy to answer because it comes down to the research and really understanding what the key benefits of what your product or service does for your particular target market. Then finding a unique angle within that to sell it so it doesn’t sound the same as everybody else. I don’t know if you look much on Facebook, but to give a clear cut example, I just wrote about this last night. Have you heard of J.Peterman?

Joey Bushnell: I haven’t, no?

Trevor Crook: Have you ever watched the show Seinfeld?

Joey Bushnell: Yes

Trevor Crook: There is always reference to J.Peterman. I think Elaine was his assistant in the show. Not so much a fictitious character based on a real life character. This guy has been traveling the world for 23 plus years finding unique pieces of clothing and selling it. Now his copy is so brilliant. He is just selling shorts, blouses, tops, slacks and luggage. But as an example I went to Macy’s site yesterday picked a dress and had a look at the description and it was one line. Peterman finds a story in that, sells the romance the emotion. You can imagine yourself trying on that dress if you’re a woman or trying on that shirt if you’re a man. You can see yourself wearing it. At the end of the day it is just an item of clothing and there’s so many people out there selling an item of clothing. But the different angle with him is he finds the full story has political license too, it adds to it so the person reading it gets the visual in their mind.

The more descriptive you get in your sales letter, the more stories you tell, the more you are going to sell. That will be the difference between a sales letter that looks the same as everything else and one that is different.

Joey Bushnell: You mentioned that in your profiling it’s quite a lot of questions that you’re asking. What are some typical questions that you would ask when you come to the profiling stage?

Trevor Crook: OK, I’ll give you real life examples and these are only the first four questions. I was critiquing a 2 page flyer/letter for a client in Scotland, he was offering Tai Chi lessons and the letter was pretty good.

The first question I asked was this “Who are you selling to, male or female?”. The first answer from John was very flippant and was “Well women” kind of like I was the dummy.

So I said “What is the percentage that are women coming into your classes?”. Off the top of his head he thought it was 80%. So already within 2 questions I knew 80% of his paying customers were female.

Question number 3 was “What is their age parameters? Are they between 35-45, 45-55, 55-65?” So I asked questions which are designed to make them think and say “Oh OK, well I think they are this…” The answer was 45-55. So 3 simple questions and now I know that 80% of their paying customers are women aged between 45-55.

The 4th question was “What is the number one reason they come in for Tai Chi lessons?” and he answers “Stress, they want stress relief”. So 4 questions that are very simple and we know who is buying. I told him I wanted him to find out the exact percentage of women customers opposed to men. It turned out it was 90%.

Just 4 simple questions which he knew in his head, and that’s the key, he knew the answers he just didn’t know how to ask himself to extract the data. 90% of their paying customers were females aged between the ages of 45-55 and the main benefit they wanted was stress relief. None of that was mentioned in their sales copy anywhere. So you can imagine if you starting writing a headline that said “Attention women aged between 45-55 who want stress relief” and then write the copy around that angle. How much more business do you think you would get?

Joey Bushnell: Loads. Do you know the conversion increase on that one?

Trevor Crook: I don’t, that was 2006. There are just so many stories like that and the sad part is they are true, as in sad because the data is there. All I can tell you with absolute fact is stuff like that isn’t a one off.

If people profile correctly and just ask themselves the simple questions like “What keeps you awake at night?”, “What gives you insomnia?”, “What gives you indigestion at lunch time?”, “What gives you diarrhea in the morning?”, “What are you afraid of?” Those are the types of questions to ask when they are profiling because all of that information helps you get the right angle.

I was doing a mentoring session last week for a guy who is writing a package targeting mums and in actual fact almost 90% of their customers are mums who buy the product for their children with some sort of learning disorder. He had the angle of his copy wrong. He was targeting the copy from the angle of all the pain that the mums might experience and the frustrations. Which is an angle that you can use, however the best angle which I see for this copy and for his copy was what are the benefits that these mum’s children are going to get. The results that kids get after you invest in the product. Instead of saying the kids are going to be angry, pissed off, don’t want to go to school etc. What are they benefits? Your kids are happy! Do the angle from that side so they can see their child simply going form this miserable git that they are now, to an amazing happy kid in a short period of time using specifics so they can see “Wow my child? All I have to do is pay the money now and do what this thing says to do and I’m going to have one of those happy children.” Because deep down that’s what they want.

Joey Bushnell: Yeah, absolutely. You talk Trevor, about 3 basic buying motives. Can you tell us a little bit about that please?

Trevor Crook: Yeah, like anything you’ve got to hit the buying emotive of your ideal target market. There are 3 basic buying modes and the first one is motive or self preservation. We must have food, clothing and shelter for ourselves before we can think of others even our mates. It’s an old instinct, it’s probably our oldest buying urge self preservation.

Then you look at basic buying motive number 2, It’s romance. So in terms of old instinct once we’ve got food, clothing and shelter we turn to leisure so comes romance. I’m taking about romance not just the desire for sex. Romance for adventure, for travel and so on. I made a decision years ago to be able to live anywhere in the world, travel and do what I do as a writer. My basic buying motive is number 2, my romance is the adventure for travel. I’ll do whatever it takes to ensure I get to live that lifestyle and I know many people are envious of that lifestyle and want that same lifestyle. So they see what I do, they see how I live and that’s hitting their basic buying motive number 2.

Then the last one is the basic buying motive for money. Money can pretty much buy anything. It gives security, you can buy food, you can buy your clothing, you can have the romance.

When you combine all 3 and understand how each individual basic buying motive works and you weave that into your sales copy you can’t help but get results. But if your sales copy doesn’t have the basic buying motive in there you are going to leave money on the table because this is instinct to people. Nothing has really changed, in the last 100, 200, 300 years or even longer in terms of our brains. So whatever it is that you are selling as a product or service, you have to hit the basic buying motives of your ideal target market. If you don’t you leave money on the table.

Getting back to your question you asked earlier about how can you write sales copy which doesn’t look the same as everybody else? Those sales letters literally leave out a lot of the key ingredients. They don’t hit the basic buying motives in a way that is believable. People get sick of looking at the same old garbage all the time.

Joey Bushnell: In most cases do you think you’re combining those three things or do you focus more heavily on one and weave a little bit of the other two in? For example let’s take the Internet Marketing, make money online niche. What do you think is the main buying motive there? Is it money or self preservation?

Trevor Crook: You may think money is the major one and of course money is a big driver for making money online. Most of the sales letters you see are selling the lifestyle that comes from that. So they are combining the romance with the money on that one and then after that you get to buy the food and do the shelter. So the main two there would be the money and the romance heavily laced on buy my product, plug it in, go to sleep and make $5,000 while you sleep for 8 hours. At the same time in terms of anything that you write you want to make it believable at the same time there’s a political license to stretch the truth but still be believable. But definitely the two big things would be the money aspect and the romance, in other words the lifestyle.

Joey Bushnell: So for example, the health and fitness niche would be the romance of being attractive, guys getting more women? Is it also a little bit of self preservation in terms of living longer?

Trevor Crook: There is definitely the self preservation and the romance angle. It’s been time proven that the hidden benefit as to why people want to lose weight is to look good naked for themselves and their partner. That’s the hidden benefit. Ultimately you can hit so many emotional triggers with the weight loss industry and obviously it’s a competitive market. But I’ve had fun writing in that industry because you can hit so many emotional triggers in so many different ways that it’s definitely enjoyable to write for.

You mentioned the self preservation and the health but at the same when you’re writing in that industry there’s “How many diets are there?”. You want to get past peoples cold reasoning as to say “Why is this going to work for me, I’ve tried that before I never lost weight, it didn’t do that, it didn’t do this”. So your copy has got to get past what really is their logical thinking and get them to where their best buying urges are, which is their basic buying motives. So you get around that with your before and after pictures, your testimonials and those things that really ram home. When they see a hugely obese person who is now thin and they want to be the same.

Even various markets. I’m writing for a lawyer in the US at the moment and he targets IRS people who are owe the US government tax. We certainly get all the basic buying emotions there and the hard part is the copy has to be approved by the Florida Bar. An 80 page document I had to study to write the copy. It’s an interesting time trying to get through and still include those basic buying motives through to then get the results.

But it definitely doesn’t matter what you are writing for, they are the basic things that people want, it doesn’t matter what you are selling. But combining those motives with story telling, I can’t run home the importance of story telling, you are going to get more sales. You can very easily get an angle wrong but do your homework correctly and you’ve got the angle right to start with pretty much every time.

Joey Bushnell: Do you have any ways that we can hold or justify a sale?

Trevor Crook: There’s many ways to justify a sale. If you’re familiar with the 50% off sale, 25% off sale the perception is to jack the price up and you’ve done a bit of a discount, especially in retail stores and alike.

I’ve held sales modeling off the damaged stock back in the late 1920’s or 1930’s for digital download products. When I say justifying, I held a sale saying “I did some recordings and there was too much background noise however you can still hear the content. The content is actually good effectively the audio is damaged, however I’m prepared to reduce it at this price”. So I’m justifying why I’m selling it cheap.

I remember talking about this on stage in 2009 in Canada and this man comes up to me and says “I bought that from you, I did the email” so there’s many reasons but people look for excuses for a sale based around a birthday, Christmas, Halloween, Easter or 4th of July. Every single day in the world there’s some historical event if you just look online and justify why you’re going to have a sale. It comes down to your imagination it really does.

There’s so many things that you can do as long as you justify in your prospects minds why you are having it and tell them the reason why or give the story, they will believe it. If you just say “I’m having a sale!” Well why are you having a sale? There’s hundreds of reasons and ways you can hold a sale and justify it. But the damage stock run letter are you familiar with it?

Joey Bushnell: I’m not but I’ve seen that type of sale being done, I’ve definitely seen that before.

Trevor Crook: I think it was Robert Collier back in 1930. Let’s take a pile of books for example, Billy Bob knocks his coffee over 50 books so now the covers have got a coffee stain on them but the content is great, this is the reason why the books are going out instead of being $19.95 they are now $7.95, so you just explain why you have the sale.

Joey Bushnell: Do you always see a massive spike in sales when you are offering a sale? People do take you up on the offer suddenly?

Trevor Crook: Yes, as long as you’ve written it correctly and you’ve justified why you are doing it. It’s amazing the psychology that works and especially when you are writing to a list of people who you think would have an idea on the psychology being used like the internet marketing crowd. But again as long as you justify why you’re having this sale and you’re hitting at least one of their buying motives they’ll put their hand up. It’s very powerful and the damage stock run letter is such a well written letter.

I know of people who take a whole pile of product and they will literally poor coffee over it. It’s just such a good way of doing something and it’s the story being told of how the stock was damaged, justifying why it’s being sold at that price instead of the normal recommended price. Which is not a bad formula, you don’t have to do the damage stock run you can do it for any reason. You can wrap it around one of your kids, your wife, your lover, your husband or your boyfriend it doesn’t really matter. Just tell the story that goes with it and make it believable then that justifies why it’s that price and why it’s that limited number.

Joey Bushnell: If we are selling at full price how do we increase our perceived value so that the full price still seems like a really good deal?

Trevor Crook: Good question. You don’t want to do what the typical IM crowd does and add $40,000 worth of B.S. bonuses that you couldn’t give away in a heart beat. You want to make your bonuses genuine value, believable. Bonuses that you could sell when standing on their own.

I’ll give you an example, when I was in Australia doing direct mail and selling my $1,000 business in a box package to business owners. I was selling it for $997 and in the second P.S that wasn’t mentioned anywhere else, this was the takeaway and the urgency… “If you were one of the first 27 business owners to order within the next 7 days, I will also give you 14 nights free accommodation for 2 people valued at $1500, 7 certificates, 2 people x2 nights”. I paid $38 for those including tax. The perceived market value of the company offering those was about $3,000, I pulled it back to be conservative. But I created the urgency to get people to take action now and order in the next 7 days and be one of the first 27. So they liked what they saw but to get them to part with their cash now, I gave them the incentive. They didn’t know it cost me $35 plus the tax coming up to $38.

One of my former travel clients in the US they would send out 30,000 postcards a week targeting people to come and listen to their presentation. Not time share but the travel industry. The draw card was that if you came in to the presentation and sat there for 45 minutes, even if invested or not, there was no hard sell, they gave you a 5 night cruise for 2 people valued at $1100. Now it cost them $27 to buy those cruises. People know that cruises are going to cost you $500-$600 for a week.

So you want to look for those, online or offline, items that are low cost to you as the product/service owner or provider that gives genuine high perceived value to the person that’s going to purchase your product or service. That’s how you sell something at the full price.

Joey Bushnell: My final question Trevor was when you are calculating how well a sales letter has done, the actual ROI that you got, are you calculating that on initial sales from that letter or do you take in to consideration the lifetime value of a customer as well? Is that something you take into consideration or not?

Trevor Crook: When I’m working for clients and they give me their results obvious they are generally looking at the initial results. You or your listeners should be looking at what the last time rate was so if it stays at a consistent rate. Now I mentioned at the beginning of the call about the client I first ever wrote for. That figure I quoted you was based on his first two levels, he had five levels that he offered. But just on the first 2 levels alone because I only worked it out on that. We found from those 2 nights he pulled in at least $558,000.

It’s very important for your people to work out the lifetime value absolutely. Because if you know what the lifetime value of a customer is, say it’s worth $1,000, even though your first sale might be worth $50. What are you prepared to do to get a customer on board knowing they are worth $1,000 to you? Like in his case he knew that if you went to his introductory night for his stock market event and paid him the $165. If 30.8% of bums on seats spent $3,500 with him. From most groups 12% parted with $6,000, so on and so on, up to his real high end stuff.

I don’t tend to use lifetime value because unless I’m working with a client forever I don’t work that out but they should work it out as well.

It’s like the little job I did for my mate with his headlines, he knows what his daily income is.  He can work out even if it stays at the 50% increase he’s added thousands and thousands of dollars per month to his income, about $9,000 a month just from that headline tweak. Which over the year at 9×12 is $108,000. He invested nothing really, a few grand to pull in $108,000 a year.

One of the things I do say to clients is look at what you’re doing now, especially when you are talking large fees. If I can increase your sales now by a couple million bucks a year and you’ve paid me $30,000 – $50,000 to write your copy isn’t that worth the investment? If you could hire a sales person tomorrow for $50,000 and he’s going to pull you in a guaranteed couple of million bucks, would you do it? And you say “Yeah!”. This is no different.

Joey Bushnell: Absolutely, so if someone is smart then to really maximize how much money their copy makes you’ve got the money making on the front end but you should have upsells in place, you should be marketing to those clients in the future and just getting every penny out of them as you can?

Trevor Crook: Absolutely you should be getting them on the backend for sure. I have people who want to be copywriters and they struggle to get clients. I discovered very early on you had to have a product first to sell, even if it’s not your own. If you buy the rights to something you can make it your own. Because I soon discovered  that any business owners would easily part with $1,000 the magical $997 to buy the box of stuff. But they realized it was too hard work for them to do it, so they would come back and hire me to write the sales copy  for them.

Some of them want mentoring and coaching and some will want events. You have got to do your mind map and think “What else can I sell to people?”. That is just critical.

Joey Bushnell: Trevor thank you so much for the information that you have given us today, where can people go and get more from you?

Trevor Crook: I appreciate it Joey, I’m happy to provide some content. If they want to subscribe to what I’m about, if they go to and have a look. There are a few good bonuses on there for them just for subscribing and you can start to get good at sales copy, it’s very critical and I’m happy to help them out.

Joey Bushnell: OK great and is it a free report did you say?

Trevor Crook: On that one there is 3 free bonuses, there’s a couple of really good marketing books as well as an advertising made easy book. Even if they just take the knowledge from those alone and apply they are going to be able to improve their business.

Joey Bushnell: Trevor thank you so much for this I really appreciate the time that you’ve spent with me today.

Trevor Crook: Thanks Joey, happy to help you mate.