Ilan & Guy Ferdman – Achieving Mastery and Peak Performance

Ilan Guy Ferdman
Ilan & Guy Ferdman – Achieving Mastery and Peak Performance. The Online Marketing Show Episode 181

Ilan & Guy Ferdman cover both the mindset side and the strategy side of having a successful online business and in this call they’ll be sharing what it takes to be a top performer with a successful business and dream lifestyle. We’re going to be discussing things such as…

  • 3 key traits that you must have got if you want to be a high performer
  • Why our actions often don’t match our intentions and what to do about it
  • The 3-1 rule; which will help you go from pessimist to optimist
  • The number one reason people struggle to get traffic to their website
  • Whether you should be a lead generation whore or not
  • And much, much more. You can listen to the podcast or read the full transcript below...

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Joseph Bushnell: Hey, welcome to the online marketing show, this is Joey Bushnell. Today I have two very special guests on the line, online marketing coaches Ilan and Guy Ferdman, go to to find out more.

Ilan, Guy thank you very much it’s great to have you both on the call.

Ilan Ferdman: Great to be here, man.

Guy Ferdman: Absolutely. Thanks for having us.

Joseph Bushnell: How did you guys get started in business and online marketing?

Ilan Ferdman: Bro, you want to take that one?

Guy Ferdman: No you go ahead man!

Ilan Ferdman: Well you started before me so…

Guy Ferdman: It’s an interesting story. Ilan early in his 20’s became a VP of a Financial institution out in New Jersey/New York area. I came and joined him as one of the underwriters and became managers in that company, when the economy collapsed, we’re one of those people that we were considered to be co-captains of the ship while the ship is going down; waved goodbye to our lifestyle, lost a lot. I ended up moving back home, selling all my things. Ilan had to deal with a lot of issues that many people have to deal with like foreclosures and all sorts of difficulties.

During that time when I left the industry, I was clear that, that wasn’t the path I really want to be on anymore and at the same time Ilan and I were both very heavily involved in personal development work through landmark education, doing a lot of coaching.

So in one aspect of my life I was dealing with people, with the commodity of money, where you see a lot of ugliness and the other side of my life was all these transformation and beauty happening and I was clear that, that was the kind of path I wanted to take. But I also didn’t want to do the old school sales method, just grinding away, cold calling, shaking hands on the street, that kind of thing. It became clear to me that if what I had learned which I knew could make a difference for people was going to spread and change people’s lives (more than just a few people at the time) I needed to get online and learn about marketing.

So I ended up joining a company, I guess it’s a business opportunity but it’s also an educational company at the same time, in terms of online marketing, which was Jay Kubassek’s company called Carbon Copy Pro back in the day and that’s where I got my start and had a knack for it right away. I think the fact we did have such a vast knowledge and a lot of experience in the personal development field for about a decade with our coaching, with our personal education, made a huge difference in terms of what we believed our potential could be.

I got the streams of all the speakers talking (Carbon Copy Pro Speakers) I came home and I was really excited obviously as young entrepreneurs are and coming from these events. I told Ilan “I really want you to listen to this content. I know you’re not going to understand what they’re talking about but I want you to listen to more of who they’re being than what exactly they’re talking about” and I just kind of left it at that. I had really no intention of him joining the business or anything like that, I just thought he’d get a kick out of it.

He calls me up 3 hours later. I don’t know exactly how you phrased it, Ilan, maybe you remember better than me. But he’s like “Whatever this is, I want in”. Then we sat around and we talked, came up with a name for the company and as they say, the rest is history!

Joseph Bushnell: Cool, so how do you help people? What would you say are the underlying principles and philosophies behind what you guys teach? I know you have a very successful podcast, a very successful membership site but what topics do you help people with?

Ilan Ferdman: So our mission, the SatoriPrime mission is to break down the walls to what people believe as possible in their lives and basically what I tell people if they ask me what I do for a living, I say I help people turn their passion into dollars in their bank accounts which usually gets a mouth-open stare at me for a little bit, but that is really our intention.

The world is changing drastically. The security of the job market and what people had been taught for a long time I think just doesn’t exist anymore. Our mission has been to give people tools, both technical and from a mindset standpoint which is something that we’ve practiced for about 12 years. Give them all the tools they need to truly live their life by their own design and not just have to be another worker bee, hate waking up in the morning to go a job that they hate or not be able to spend time with their kids.

So however that looks, we do it all different ways. Whether it’s teaching people how to market on Facebook; get them so they’re not afraid of success or not afraid of failure; help them launch their products, their services, build businesses for them. We kind of do it all but the main message is always to break down what they believe is possible for themselves, break down the walls to what they believe is possible and actually turn their passions into money.

Joseph Bushnell: So what is the name of your podcast?

Ilan Ferdman: Our podcast is called Performance Enhancing Podcast which is actually a play on performance enhancing drugs. The concept is basically, we were just talking before I never really listened to podcast all that much. But I actually did and I love them.

My biggest, not hate but gripe I guess with podcasts is you tend to listen to like an hour long interview and at the end you’re walking away with 15, 20 minutes worth of golden nuggets because most of the time they’re like ‘how are you, it’s so good to see you’ blah blah blah. I was like I wish someone just did a cliff notes version and I looked around no one did it so Performance Enhancing Podcast is basically cliff notes version of other people’s podcasts where we obviously give them credit, great articles, great videos, great books, anything like that so it’s a very condensed what I call just a golden nugget version of a lot of people’s podcasts.

Joseph Bushnell: I love it. I think that’s a great idea

Ilan Ferdman: Thanks

Guy Ferdman: Plus some interviews. I kind of want to mention in the same breath, for me when were doing a lot of personal development coaching, we had done it free for a really long time. But what I always saw is a lot of people reached that place usually when some kind of trauma had happened in their life, they start seeking for answers, started looking for how they can grow to change their patterns, I suppose.

What we notice when we got into this industry. I guess it’s probably across all entrepreneurialism is that entrepreneurs come to that place very quickly, where they realize that the results their business is getting is a mirror of what their personally capable of producing. They get very interested in personal development work and they are extremely coachable.

So it’s just a really good marriage for us because we like both industries very much, I think it’s just a perfect marriage of the two fields.

Joseph Bushnell: Yeah I think it is as well. You can’t grow a business without the mindset side, you just can’t do it and you also can’t grow a business without marketing. So if anyone listening to this wants to have that amazing lifestyle and that life that can be achieved by having an amazing business then they really need to be mastering those two areas.

Guy Ferdman: Yeah. 100%

Ilan Ferdman: I actually think the mindset is probably, I would say 90%.

Joseph Bushnell: Wow OK, that’s interesting let’s talk about that a bit more then please, the mindset side of things. Let’s talk about performance first of all, the name of your podcast is Performance Enhancing Podcast so what traits and mindset characteristics do high performers have?

Ilan Ferdman: Great question. Great, great question. I am always astounded by masters. What I mean by masters is in any arena of life. Someone that’s dedicated to their craft.

I just saw before we got on a video, I don’t know if it’s real or not but it’s basically David Beckham on the beach and some guy asks him “Can you kick the ball into a garbage can?” and it was like, however many feet or yards away. David’s like “Yeah sure”. The guys asks “Can you hit all 3?” and he’s like “Yeah, just give me more balls”. So he gives him 3 balls and lo and behold the guy nails it into all 3.

Now I don’t know if it’s accurate or not but the point is that, in order to master anything in your life, I don’t care if it’s you’re a great writer, you cook well, you play an instrument, you’re a master at a business, you’re on top of the business. The person you have to become, that process is actually what creates mastery. So the dedication, the ability to conquer all fears, not all fears but the ability to fight your fears, the ability to work harder than 99% of other people, maybe even more. Those are all characteristics of people that I look out there as masters.

Recently what I started to notice is people’s obsession with their craft. Because in order to be able to fight through all of these things and where most people get stopped and their like “Oh, it’s just too hard“. The obsession, that’s where it comes in; because when you’re so obsessed with something, nothing stops you. You literally feel like you can run through cement walls over and over because you know where you’re headed and the people that I get to interview, thanks to the podcast I’ve been able to interview some incredible people. I just hear it time and time again.

When you ask someone about their failures and things that they experience. I just think people look at Guy and I, or you and say ‘Oh my God they’re so successful. They have it so easy, blah blah blah”. Truth is if you told someone the sh*t that we went through, most of them would never , like if you gave someone a piece of paper and you were like “OK look, here’s what you’re going to have to go through for the next 10 years but on the other side of this, here’s the life that you’re going to have”. I guarantee you, even knowing the life that they would have, they still wouldn’t go through some of that stuff and so that to me is peak performance. It’s that level of mastery.

Joseph Bushnell: Yeah I couldn’t agree more. You see the end result but you don’t know what happened along the way. I’ve still got the grey hairs to prove my journey, those are my battle scars, I very much learned the hard way and eventually sometimes you make it but sometimes unfortunately some people don’t. Obviously if we all did, that would be great but I think it comes down to sometimes you just have to keep going and pushing through the hard times.

So let’s talk about that next, let’s talk about failure because it’s going to happen, no matter who you are, you are going to have your victories and you are going to have your failures along the way and that will never change, that happens throughout a persons career. So how do high performers look at failure compared to someone who is not a high performer and how they look at failure? Does it stop them or push them on further, what happens?

Guy Ferdman: I love that question. I’m actually reading a really fantastic book by the kid who the movie “Searching for Bobby Fischer” is based on, who was the youngest chess champion in the world and went to be a 10 time or 13 time Ti-Chi world class champion too.

He makes this distinction about the studies of kids who are raised to believe, like when they bring a test home and their parents are like “Oh my gosh, you did such a good job you got an A” and then they bring an F home and they’re like “What’s wrong with you, why didn’t you do better?’ Versus the parents who a kid brings a test home and he didn’t do well and is trained to believe that if you work harder you can do better next time. It creates a fragmented mind because one gets rewards from ‘When I do well I’m good, when I do bad, I’m bad”. The other one gets rewarded from “You can always work to attain your goals”.

It’s funny because I grew up like the  person that “When I do good I’m good, when I do bad I’m bad” and I’ve completely transformed that mentality into more of like “Labor. If you work hard enough at it, you can get it”.

I noticed that definitely more people are sided with the first one. You’ll see a lot of people come into the industry and their resistance to having any type of failure or to seeing their personal chink in the amour as if they are not perfect. There is so much resistance around that.

Something that makes you see your inadequacies, I don’t know if there’s anything more than a business that will allow you to see where you need to go to work on yourself. So I think that is really what makes the difference, is the ability to understand that that’s just a part of the ride. It doesn’t need to slow you down at all.

Ilan and I always talk about velocity in performance and I think what allows us to have a lot of velocity in performance is we just have a completely different distinction around what failure means. We actually work towards failure. We don’t work away from failure. In fact we always have this rule that the thing we are afraid of the most is the thing that we go do first. We’ve used that as a guide for a long time, kind of like a beacon signal of “That’s where we want to go”.

So I always try to teach our students “Everything you want is on the opposite side of your fears and your failures”. So just switch it around in your mind and seek it. I think that that’s what successful people do. They don’t cower from it and they learn from it and they move on and they get bigger and better and grow. That’s what happens.

Joseph Bushnell: If we are not experiencing failure then we are probably very comfortable, we aren’t growing, we’ve cocooned our self in this safe little space but we aren’t growing or getting anywhere.

Ilan Ferdman: Exactly. One of our first mentors, when we started our business basically said to us “I hope for you to fail big and fail fast“. Now at the time when we were broke, our house was being foreclosed on, a kid on our way, literally the worst case scenario and I’m looking at this guy and I’m like “You’re an a**hole. Why would you ever say that to me when I’m about to launch a business?”.

Now looking back, he’s so right. I mean that’s what I would wish anyone today. Because you don’t learn when things are working, you learn when the world is upside down and you’ve fallen flat on your face.

If you just treat it like a game, Wayne Dyer says this thing that you get up to the golf range and you want to drive the ball 300 yards in front of you and you take a swing and the ball shanks just 6 feet and just slices, like dribbles right in front of you. Now most people would be like “I’m a failure”. So they don’t look at it as a result that they didn’t produce. They automatically attach it to themselves like “I am this failure”.

But in essence you produced a result just not the result you want. Just a slight shift in the way you’re swinging that golf club will actually produce the result that you want which is 300 yards dead ahead. People just stop themselves way too short so if all you look for is “I produced x”. I didn’t fail but I just produced a different result than what I wanted and then look at that and figure out “What was missing? What can I add? What can I do differently?” Or anything like that and then learn the lesson and then take another stab at it.

It might not be the 2nd or 3rd or even 10th stab but you know what, there’s a quote that goes around Facebook “If plan A doesn’t work, there’s 25 other letters in the alphabet“. Just keep going and that’s what I’m saying, masters just keep going until they produce the result and it doesn’t matter if people around them are saying to them “Oh this is stupid, why do you spend so much time?” they know what they’re working for.

I told my wife yesterday at dinner “I’m obsessed with our business”. I would so much rather sprint my a** off and if that means 14-16 hours a day 5, 6, 7 days a week; I’ll do that for the next 2-3 years so that the next 50 years, me and my family are living like kings.

Joseph Bushnell: What is a high performers attitude toward learning? I guess, by this I’m not so much referring to learning through experience as we’ve just been talking about just then, I mean how about absorbing new information, listening to podcasts, reading books, reading blogs, taking courses, going to seminars. What do high performers do differently when it comes to learning?

Guy Ferdman: I would say implementation is the key. Most people, it’s funny because we build a lot of our own products, we do a lot of stage talks. It always seems to me that people feel they get more value when they fill up their notebooks more, they take more notes and somehow equates to more value in their minds.

But if you really think about it, how often have you ever gone back to read a single note that you’ve ever taken at any event? It’s rare, if at all. What I know is that I generally don’t do that. I generally don’t take notes. I generally just remain as present as I can. I have something at stake or a possibility that is open for me in my mind and what I’m looking for is just someone to fill in that space with their experience.

I’m listening for what would make a difference from another leader’s perspective that I haven’t viewed that through yet, if that makes sense? Then the moment that pings in, my first job is to just go and start implementing immediately so that I can have experience with it.

One of the things we teach people is that, what you know truly doesn’t make a difference. For instance, we have a huge obesity epidemic in the Unites States. But there’s no secret as to how to overcome that. It’s like… eat healthy, exercise and obesity disappears in a few months but that information doesn’t seem to make a difference for anybody. However, if you bring a person to a really good personal trainer and within first 2 to 4 weeks of going there they have this experience of losing weight, their energy has increased, they’re feeling better about themselves, increased confidence. All that came not from having information but from having an experience through to a result.

So I think that is what leaders do is, they are action junkies and they look to create brain patterns and physical patterns that allow them to take advantage of that information.

So information becomes action very quickly. I would say that that’s probably the biggest difference.

Ilan Ferdman: Just also to add to that, I think that creating a context that forces you into that situation, so I would say like “Pick a sand box that forces you to build sand castles“. So what I mean by that is for example with my podcast, I wanted a method, really selfishly, that would force me to read more books because I know the more you read the better, we’re in masterminds right now with 7, 8, 9, 10 figure earners and just looking around and serving them, they read a ton, a book a week minimum.

So information is the difference maker here, so consume more information. So I knew I’d been lazy, what did that do? I created a podcast where I have to produce content every Monday and Thursday and that pushes me. People depend on me now to produce 1 content every Monday and every Thursday so that pushes me to read more books, pushes me to listen to more podcasts, pushes me to learn more.

I think if you put yourself in a context, and that’s why I think starting an online business is an amazing context is because when you do that, you have to learn or you don’t succeed.

When an athlete says “I’m going to train to be in a marathon or the Olympics” or whatever the heck it is, then guess what? When they wake up at 5 in the morning and they feel dog sh*t and they’re like “I don’t like to get out of bed”. They look up at that poster and they go “Well, the Olympics are 6 months away”. I guarantee you they get up and do the work. Whereas most of us we’re kind of like “I don’t feel like it today” you’re like this 7-year old whiny kid is the one that’s running your life. So I think a lot of it has to do with your context.

Joseph Bushnell: OK, so I saw on a video on your website guys about how we should have low expectations but big commitments. This wasn’t something I’d really heard of before, can you explain this concept, why should we have low expectations but big commitments?

Guy Ferdman: I remember when that line came out of my mouth and even I was impressed because I’d never heard that before either! I guess here’s the thing… most people when they are creating an expectation at the same time they’re creating an attachment to something. What they have in their mind is, they picture the way it’s going to show up.

What they get attached to is that it’s got to show up this way or it’s not happening. That’s like saying I’m going to go buy a lottery ticket today and I know that I’m going to win this one the way that I’m doing it exactly right now. We live in the world of infinite possibility and things arise in a multitude, infinite type of ways. Our limited knowledge of the universe it’s amazing how we’ll take a situation and say “I know how this is supposed to go” where it could happen in so many different ways.

So mostly what I notice is people aren’t open to just receiving in the way that’s going to arise. Because of that, their vision is extremely small like looking in a pinhole and it can only come through that pinhole or it’s not coming at all. I think what people need to wake up to is when you create something, my personal view on it is the universe is going to provide it for you.

We are part of the creation system we all have that, we’re just part of it, I don’t want to get into the philosophy behind that just accept it or don’t accept what I just said. If you verbally create, emotionally get involved with it, align yourself with what it is that you want, it will arise in your life. It just probably won’t come in the picture that you think is going to come. I think that’s what I was aiming with that.

So just get inspired and align with your expectations such that it’s a commitment versus being attached to how it looks so you’re always committed to your goal but you release that attachment of how is it going to come. If you stay persistent with your commitment, I can nearly guarantee that you’ll get what you want.

Joseph Bushnell: I do get a bit wound up sometimes, I don’t know how you two feel about this but have you ever come across it where someone gets into online marketing and they were sold on the fact that it was push button easy, it was going to happen quickly, it was this and that and basically a load of other false promises and unrealistic expectations.

I’m thinking “Argh! You’ve got such high expectations, you think that building a business was going to be easy, it was going to just come to you, someone was going to give it to you”. Most people don’t think like this but I have encountered this occasionally that unfortunately that people get into business with these really high expectations and they are just way off, they just aren’t realistic at all.

Guy Ferdman: Same here by the way it happens a lot. These days our marketing for anything that has to do with turning a business online we are really clear, we literally write in the ad like “This is a lot of hard work. If you’re not the type of person that’s capable of doing the hard work don’t even click on this ad”. We tell our students we literally create ads for people not to click on them because just like you I want the qualification from the moment that they have that first interaction with anything that we do, I want the expectation to be set the right way so that they come in, like I said, with the commitment to have transformation with the commitment to have a higher increase quality of life but also with the understanding of just what it logistically and realistically takes.

Doesn’t mean that people don’t hit the target really fast. I’m sure that there are people who walk into the industry, 3 months later they are absolutely crushing it. But it really is results not typical.. and we’re talking .001% that happens to. Again it’s like that lottery mentality to come in and believe that you are going to be one of those people. Can it happen? Yeah it can probably happen. Is it probable? It’s really not that probable.

I love that you took that line out and I probably need to write that one down too. Even though I’m the one that said it but it really is kind of the keys to the whole situation and it goes back to what Ilan said about context just have proper context.

Joseph Bushnell: I love what you said there about client expectations because I do exactly the same. I would rather have a more difficult sale, I know in marketing we sell the benefits and the easy stuff but I would rather not do that and give myself a harder time selling that person but give them proper expectations so they know what is ahead when we work together and when they are likely to achieve success and how they are going to get there. Rather than have an upset client who just signed up for something they didn’t quite understand what they were signing up for so I couldn’t agree more with you on that. Qualify your client’s big time and let them know what’s involved because it’s not helping anyone when you sell people short.

Ilan Ferdman: If your marketing is good in any business or service or whatever your business is. The better your marketing is, the less selling you do.

We have 2 different Facebook mastermind groups a really high-end one, one for people who are starting out. Our marketing right now on the front-end is so good that when people get on the phone with me to talk about this mastermind they’re like ‘I can’t believe I’m on the phone with you’ and ‘What do I need to do to checkout?”. I don’t really have to do any selling to the point where the last go around I said to Guy “75% of people that I spoke to joined one of the masterminds”. That’s insane and I didn’t do any selling.

I think if you’re confronted in any business with some sort of consistent type of person and/or consistent rebuttal then I would go back and actually look at your marketing. Because your marketing, like the law of attraction, like attracts like. So if your marketing is positioned a certain way and you tend to get tire-kickers, or you tend to get people who are entitled or people who complain about money, whatever it is I would actually go back to your messaging because something in your messaging is allowing for those people to come in.

Joseph Bushnell: Why do our actions often not match our intentions? We want something but we aren’t doing it. For example I want to lose weight but I’m not doing diet or exercise, I want to build a business but I’m not doing X,Y and Z. Why does this happen and what do we do about it? How can we get our intentions and actions aligned?

Ilan Ferdman: I’m going to give you guys the simplest way to figure out why you don’t get results in your life. I just shared this in London at an event and people just came up to me afterwards like “I cannot believe how simple that was”. So here it is… If you’re not getting results in your life, in any arena. This could be health, finance, relationships whatever it is. You’re in 1 of 2 places. You are either not doing the work or you’re doing the wrong work and you’re lying to yourself about it.

Guy Ferdman: You also forgot, when you’re not doing the work, you’re also lying about it.

Joseph Bushnell: Yeah.

Ilan Ferdman: Yeah so that’s really it, when people say to me like “Oh this is not working, this is not working”. It’s literally one of those 2 places. I don’t care what topic you give me, it can boil down to one of those 2 things. So it’s either you’re not taking action and you lie to yourself about it or your taking the wrong actions and you’re lying to yourself about it.

Sometimes when you train people and they’re like “I want to create a thousand dollars a month” and you’re like “What have you been doing?”. They’re like “Well I’ve been working on my logo and my header and this and that” you’re like “Dude really? You haven’t made a sale online and you’re worried about your logo?”.

I think there are just so many unrealistic things that people have but most of the time they waste their time on useless tasks not money-producing tasks or if it’s in a relationship people are like “Well I can’t ever meet the right person” and you’re like “Well how many dates are you going on?”. “None”. “Really? Seriously?”.

Guy and I are really no nonsense guys, no BS guys, people either like that or don’t. But what we have found is that our students and clients, they love that about us, because we just don’t bullsh*t. It’s like if I hear you say something that is not aligned with what you told me you want for yourself and your life, I’m going to hit you right in between the eyes with it. It might hurt and sting but as a mentor and a coach, that’s my job. I’m not here to be your grandma who is petting you “You did a good job son”. You want results.

Guy Ferdman: You’re certainly doing a lot of characters these days!

Ilan Ferdman: Yeah! You want results now. You’re lying to yourself. Period.

Guy Ferdman: The other thing I would add to that is I think the one thing that stops a lot of people from getting results is procrastination and contextually people always wonder “I procrastinate, I don’t know why” or they show up late or there’s no integrity around their word but I think it really is just again going back to context. Context is one of those things you can look at in any situation and say “What is my context here?” and the context is either going to give you power or not around that situation.

So context to look at when we’re talking about procrastination is just a matter of making things important to you. Your average person says “I want XYZ” and then their first excuse is “I don’t have a lot of money or time”. It’s the natural knee jerk reaction of everyone across the planet: no money, no time, and they don’t really think what’s behind that. Money and time is never really the issue. There is something behind it that they don’t want to come clean about.

I would just say to that, if you wake up on a Monday, and somebody asks you to do something and you use the prototypical “I don’t have money, I don’t have time” but come Tuesday if your car breaks down in the morning but you’ve got to get to work because that’s your livelihood, without money you’re not going to survive. Are you going to find the money and the time to fix that car? Probably. Or if your kid gets sick on Tuesday and you really can’t take care of him, he’s got to go to the hospital, got to go to the doctor, are you going to find the money and time that you didn’t have the day before? You’re going to have to find it, right? So the only thing that’s changed is the context of “This is important to me”.

It’s the same thing with business owners. When you make the results as important to you as breathing, there is that meme going around “When you make your business as important as it is for you to breathe, you will succeed”. It really kind of takes that. It’s like putting your life almost at risk for the result and when you work that way with that level of importance I don’t really see how you could fail. I mean how you could not succeed with the goal that you have, failure is going to be there obviously.

Joseph Bushnell: How does our environment affect us and the success that we attain?

Ilan Ferdman : I think it’s what we’ve been talking about before, I think when we say environment, we’re actually talking about the context more than anything. So it’s not like I’m in New York and Guy moved to San Diego. Did that environment change him? Absolutely because environment has an effect. But I think it’s more the context that you put yourself in.

So back in December I made a conscious to join a very, very powerful mastermind with amazing people who honestly, I didn’t feel like I belonged in that group. The fact that they let me in I was like “Holy crap, thank gosh!” Now that environment for me was very eye-opening because when you surround yourself with people who are really, really successful in all different arenas in life, you start seeing similarities and what you notice is how much further you start pushing yourself to become part of that environment.

So I went to an event, Guy went to an event with another group. I think we had a very similar experience where, yes on the one hand we were really humbled by the fact that we were there. But then when you’re sitting down and you’re talking with the 7,8, 9 figure earners and you’re actually making a profound difference in their lives, what you walk away from is the knowledge that “I can make that kind of difference to anyone” and that breeds confidence and that confidence will breed new actions and those new actions will give you new results. Then you’re on this amazing new wheel of sorts. So that’s what I think when we’re talking about environment, that’s what we’re really talking about.

Joseph Bushnell: Cool I want to join your club man 9, 10 figure earners wow, I know plenty of 7 and 8 figure earners, maybe even a few 9’s but 10 that’s amazing!

Ilan Ferdman: Yeah these are legit, legit guys.

Joseph Bushnell: Wow that is cool. OK moving on, something else I heard you both discussing your site, on a video, is you speak about the 3 to 1 rule, I’ll let you explain it, when it comes to thinking and our thought patterns, what is the 3 to 1 rule?

Ilan Ferdman: Oh you’re talking about the negativity bias?

Joseph Bushnell: Yeah the negative to positive thoughts ratio, I guess you could call it.

Ilan Ferdman: I did an amazing interview with this woman called Stella Grizont who is a positive psychologist. It was really the first time I’d ever heard of it. Basically what they’ve done is, typical psychology is asking the question of “What is wrong with people?” and then they try to fix us. Positive psychology which is kind of a new field is asking what is right with you or with people and how can we do more of that.

So what they found is by hooking our brains up now to all these wires and whatever, it’s pretty amazing what neuroscience has done, is that our brain is actually programmed to be negative. You might be like “I’m not negative!” well for me at the human physiological level we all are. We are programmed that way and it’s actually the thing that’s kept us alive.

So back in the day, there is lions chasing us or animals or threats or all this kind of stuff. The fact the we were negative was almost like we were always looking for danger and that’s how our brain got programmed to do what it does.

What they found is that if you can alter your state of mind to have 3 positive thoughts for every one negative thought, you are happier, more fulfilled, more successful, more creative, more alive that seems to be the magic number.

So for a lot of people they are completely oblivious to the fact that they have thoughts. To them, it’s them. Once you realize it’s not you, it’s just thoughts like random things happening in your brain, once you get that and you can start creating the muscle to filter these things out, then now you can control the thought process. So when something horrible happens like Guy and I are always looking for instead of the why questions like “Why me? Why now?” all this kinds of stuff. We ask “What is this hear to teach us? How can we use this to grow?” Things of that nature and right away you’re completely switching the consciousness and bringing positivity to an otherwise negative situation. So I think that’s what you’re taking about.

Joseph Bushnell : I’d love to know for the average person, what the ratio actually is, I know a lot of people who are probably about 1 to 100 negative to positive!

Ilan Ferdman: Put it this way I’d be afraid to find out!

Joseph Bushnell: Yeah crazy, but like you said its survival, it’s got us to a certain point but then if you really want to succeed and get ahead then push beyond that, take it a step further, see if you can take some kind of control over it. I’m sure it’s going to take a lot of practice to get that mastered at but certainly I’m going to start going for it, I’m going to try to see if I can monitor my own thoughts a bit more and I’m sure I’m going to be surprised and shocked at what I find.

Ilan Ferdman: At the beginning you can literally like, you don’t have to do it all the time but one of the things that she says that she teaches people to do is, just have a little piece of paper with you with like a tally on both sides and throughout the day, just check in to see what’s happening. But I feel like once you turn that corner you’ll just see that life starts shifting and looking very, very different than what you might be used to.

Joseph Bushnell: OK so we’ve talked a lot about mindset, performance and a lot of internal things, things that have to do with ourselves. Let’s talk about marketing very briefly before we close and online marketing specifically. What is the number one reason why people don’t get enough traffic to their website?

Guy Ferdman: I think it’s just the fact that the entire industry has you believe that it’s a difficult thing to do. They make it like it’s some elusive pink unicorn that only a few who lead know how to do. The funny truth about traffic is there is just so many ways to buy it. It’s not so much the matter of getting traffic and paying for it. I think it’s that most people are really, really complacent and lazy about tracking. Because of that they never really get any traction and they take the approach of “Let’s just throws things at the wall and hope it sticks”. They do get some results here and there but it’s sporadic and they’re not really learning about digging into the data, taking a look at it and making the right decisions, figuring out how to scale up, things of that nature.

So they struggle with that for years ongoing and the moment you introduce that into the equation and show them how to properly do it, people can scale up their business within months highly effectively and predicatively. That’s the 2 major causes that I see.

Ilan Ferdman: I think also people also have unrealistic expectations. Right now Facebook’s made a big shift and they’ve really become a much more “pay to play model”. So we’d always taught people organic things that really, really worked and you know what, sadly they just don’t work, I mean they work but they don’t work as well.

So if you’re one of those people who are looking for like 50 to a 100 leads a day you got to be ready to pay for those leads. It’s really, really difficult especially for people starting out to get some good traction unless they have a marketing budget behind them. The marketing budget doesn’t have to be huge like Guy and I started for $5 a day on Facebook. I can’t even share probably what we spent last month but we started there too.

I think just getting past the fear of paying for traffic or being like “I got all these likes, only 16% of my list sees it” which I’m telling you right now is even less. “I don’t want to pay for it again, why should I?” Well you should because if you want to run a business then get off your high horse and that’s just the way it’s played.

Guy Ferdman: Yeah

Joseph Bushnell: So that comes down to a bit of mindset again then, that people are scared in a way to pay for traffic or they don’t want to pay for traffic or like you said they have unrealistic expectations, and I teach this as well, you guys know that I teach online marketing too and this is definitely something that I teach that you have to pay for traffic, you have got to be prepared to pay for traffic. If you are only willing to try and get free traffic, well we’ve already discussed, it’s really hard to scale.

Ilan Ferdman: Yeah it’s impossible. I met a guy who has a very successful podcast and he runs a million plus dollar business on the back of his podcast. No marketing whatsoever and I was like “Wait how’s that possible?” and then I said “When did you start the podcast?” he said “2006”. I was like “OK you invested 8 years of time to get your business”. So if you want a business in 8 years from now then by all means go free traffic.

Joseph Bushnell: Yeah agreed, the thing is what I tell people is if you are getting ROI and your marketing is good and you are getting the conversions your traffic pays for itself. In fact you will want to spend more on traffic because you know reliably and consistently you will make X amount back.

I find that people are scared to either give it a try in the first place or they’ve tried it once or twice and it didn’t go very well. This goes back to what we said earlier about failure, they try it and instead of thinking to themselves “What did I do wrong? How can I improve it? How can I do it better this time?” and try again, instead they stop it all together which I find crazy.

Ilan Ferdman: 100%.

Guy Ferdman: Yeah. I think for a lot of people they expect that they should be getting results, again that word “should” comes up a lot, they should be getting results out the gate. Joe, you and us both know that in order to have any successful campaign, you’re going to go in at a loss, it’s going to take some investment money, to collect enough data to start making the proper decisions that are going to allow that to become a profitable campaign. But once your profitable, your ability to scale it is nearly unlimited and you are always going to make back that money.

So your newbie marketer or even a lot of advanced marketers are just not willing to go in and say “Look, I’m going to spend $3,000-$5,000 just to collect data”. Forget it, I don’t even care about making money during that point just to get the right data so I can make the decisions that will bring it to something they can predictably return, a 3 to 1 return or 5 to 1 return on your money.

Once you’re at that point, like show me one investment vehicle on the planet that is going to give you a 500% return on your money outside of marketing. I don’t know if that exists. You just have to get really comfortable with being uncomfortable. That’s pretty much what it comes down to.

Ilan Ferdman: Now you’re asking people to do too much.

Guy Ferdman: Yeah, that’s it.

Joseph Bushnell: My final question is do you guys get as many leads as you can? Are you “lead whores” so to speak or do you cherish the leads that you have? Do you really take that lead and care for it and nurture it and do all that you can to bring them out the other side as a customer, client or friend?

Ilan Ferdman: That’s a really good question. We’ve been both. I think what we’ve come to is, people when they start are lead whores because the ego wants leads. You want to feel like you’re progressing. The problem is that people don’t understand the difference between a quality lead and a lead especially when they start out. They just collect leads because it feels good to the ego.

We’ve gotten to the point where we know our business models so well. This is kind of the thing that I don’t care if you’re just starting out or you’re seasoned or whatever. If you don’t know what your customer value is over a 3 month, 6 month, 9 month, 12 month window is, then you don’t really know your business.

What I mean by that is we had a dollar software that we’re leading with on the front-end with. We were paying at $1.37 for a single dollar conversion. Now from an investment stand point someone would look at us and say “You guys are idiots”. But we knew the way our funnel was designed and the way our business was designed that our customer value in a 6-month window was just under $700. We would have spent $300 to get a dollar sale because we knew what our customer value is.

So I think when you know that then it becomes less about collecting leads and being a lead whore, and just creating customers, good quality customers that love your approach, love the way you market. Joe, for our customers and your customers, yes I’m sure there is going to be some sort of cross over but you attract a certain demographic, we attract a certain demographic, other people attract their certain demographic. Just do your own thing and get quality people into your business that you want to work with, more than anything else.

If you can do that with 5 leads a day, do it with 5 leads a day. But I don’t think there’s a thing where you have to be— unless you’re doing some health and fitness offers and you just want to run crazy numbers. But our business is built on just getting really, really good quality people through our funnels.

Guy Ferdman: I think I said something that you said before about qualifying people from the moment that they see the ad and getting really qualified people. I remember early on for us it was just honestly speaking, a lot more about the sales than it was about the delivering of value just because of the situation that we were in, it was very difficult to cut other people first. Today we are very much “Other people first, money second” because the money is just a function of the value that we offer people so as long as we pay attention to that.

The point here is that, if you get those clients or you attain those clients that weren’t qualified in the beginning, and Joe I’m sure you can attest to this, those clients you would happily give their money back to because they are just the ultimate time and energy suck, would you agree with that?

Joseph Bushnell: Yeah

Guy Ferdman: You would get down on your knees, with the whatever thousands of dollars they gave you piled up a hundred dollar bills in your hands and be like “Please take this and get the hell away from me”. You don’t even want to work with those people.You don’t want them around.

One of the things that I would tell any new marketer or advanced marketer or struggling whatever, really do the best you can to look for people who align with your moral fabric, who are like-minded to you, people that you would love to have a beer with, people who you’d like to sit down and have dinner with it wouldn’t bother you not to do what you’re doing without getting paid for it. You just get paid for it because they see the value in who you are. Those are the people that you love doing business with and you’ll easily be able to deliver results for them.

You should never be doing anything in your business that you can’t easily give that value to someone and if  it’s difficult for you then I would say you’re probably doing the wrong thing.

Ilan Ferdman: Yep.

Joseph Bushnell: This has been absolutely fantastic to speak to you both I’m so pleased that you guys were able to come on the show at the same time, it’s been really fun to talk to you. Where can we find out more about you? If we really resonate with your style and the things that you teach, where can we go? How can you help us further?

Ilan Ferdman: I’ll give you 2 places, the 1st is very easy. You can head over to that’s the best place to get hold of us and the other one if you’re just looking for kick-ass information just go in and check out the performance enhancing podcast either on iTunes or Stitcher. Those are the best ways to get in touch with us.

Joseph Bushnell: Excellent! With that we’ll wrap up this episode, thank you very much for tuning in, if you enjoyed the show please support us by leaving a positive review on iTunes or Stitcher and lastly Ilan, Guy thank you very much for coming on The Online Marketing Show.

Ilan Ferdman: Awesome, thanks for having us.

Guy Ferdman: It was a pleasure man, it was fun.